What do we do about crazy people?
The recent murder of a local police officer and shooting of another by a person whose mental illness had allegedly been previously reported to law enforcement highlights the difficulty of responding to reports of mental illness.
On May 10, 2021, Edward Giron killed police Detective Luca Benedetti and wounded Detective Steve Orozco by lying in ambush as they executed a search warrant seeking property that had been stolen from a former employer. Detective Benedetti left a wife and two young children. Detective Orozco is expected to recover.
In comments to this paper, Giron’s mother indicated that he had been in a “declining mental state,” including displaying paranoia. She reported that she had fruitlessly contacted authorities numerous times advising them of his deterioration, and had even requested that he be placed in a 5150 mental health hold, which the authorities declined to do. Also in this paper, the Shredder has suggested that the killing was the result of a failure to provide Giron with “help and compassion,” although Giron apparently never sought help (“Politicize everything?” May 20).
What should have been done? Of course, in hindsight it is obvious that Giron was dangerously deranged and should have been locked up. Still, Giron’s criminal record was reportedly limited to “nonviolent drug, alcohol and property offenses,” and no threats of violence were reported. Giron’s criminal record was similar to that of many of our local homeless and other residents, and recent laws and edicts have ordered the release of many such offenders. Many of our more extreme political partisans are paranoid. Behavior is difficult to predict. Who do we lock up?
If we knew the answer to that question, Detective Benedetti would still be alive.
In the absence of serious criminal acts or threats, law enforcement is prohibited from intervening and placing anyone into care, unless they can show that they are an “imminent danger to others or themselves.” In practice, this is a difficult standard to meet. Even then, the “hold” is for a very limited time. Otherwise, no one can be forced to get treatment, and many of the mentally ill refuse it.
These limitations are the result of our society’s ambivalence and conflicting demands. We want to be safe, and we want the ill to be helped, but we also respect a person’s personal autonomy and right to choose their own lifestyle and beliefs. Much of the problem comes from the fact that mental illness is subjective. We often celebrate eccentric and quirky behavior. Consider San Francisco. One person’s “lunatic” can be another’s “colorful character.” Further, aberrant behavior and delusional thinking may be transitory, so that someone may appear coherent at certain times, such as when questioned by a cop. A potential for violence may go undetected up to the moment they commit a terrible act.
It has been the trend since the 1960s to take a more accepting view of what constitutes “normal” behavior. Recall the movie One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest, in which asylum patients were depicted as merely eccentric folks who were punished for failing to conform. An era which questioned norms on behavior, beliefs, and lifestyles, and which celebrated challenging authority, has given us an elastic and broader view of what is acceptable. We no longer want to be judgmental. A person engaged in a loud and angry argument with themselves is no longer a raving lunatic, but instead is a “nontraditional conversationalist” or merely “inwardly referential.” What is more judgmental than calling someone crazy?
Society reacted to some now-shocking former mental health interventions, such as lobotomies and institutionalizing children for behavior that upset controlling parents. We grew wary of the objectivity of possible informants, such as estranged spouses or parents who disapprove of a child’s lifestyle (“He’s shooting marijuana!”).
So we have defaulted to a standard requiring that a person must be about to kill someone else, or be perched on a ledge ready to jump, to enable the law to intervene. We have chosen to wait until an individual actually commits or threatens violent crimes before we act, and to occasionally be shocked by insane violence from those who are walking about freely.
The question of official policy on mental health interventions also is a central part of other issues. Should the authorities be able to force treatment on the addicted and mentally ill homeless? Should an unproven allegation of domestic violence be enough to seize someone’s guns under a red flag law?
What should we do? As with many issues, intervention comes down to a very difficult choice between public safety and our personal freedoms. Before you quickly respond with some glib, ideologically driven proposal, please conduct an experiment: First, read Detective Benedetti’s obituary, and consider the loss to his widow and children, and the countless others who have lost loved ones to the criminally insane. And then, go on down to the DMV, and decide if you would be comfortable entrusting the government to determine the state of your mental health.
Good luck. Δ
John Donegan is a retired attorney in Pismo Beach who knows that he is sane because his parents had him tested. Send comments for publication to letters@newtimesslo.com.
This article appears in Jun 3-13, 2021.
—–Recall the movie One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest, in which asylum patients were depicted as merely eccentric folks who were punished for failing to conform.
No, what I recall is Nurse Ratched and the totalitarian rule she established. That is, in fact, the theme of the book, the play and the movie.
Harold A Maio, retired mental health editor
This article points to the obvious problem of figuring out what to do about people who don’t behave “normally”. While the problem is obvious, the solution, if there is one, is bound to be complicated, nuanced and unsatisfactory. We will never stop all violent crime. If we move back toward restraining or locking up people who behave “abnormally”, there will undoubtedly be abuses and disagreements about what was done. It does seem like we need to try, but it is likely to be a thankless task.
Usually I have to run through a gauntlet of red flags when I read John Donegan’s columns, but this one was somewhat enlightening. Mr. Donegan rightly points out that the police are hindered by law regarding arresting or detaining all people, including the mentally ill. It is not illegal to be mentally ill unless you break the law. But what Mr. Donegan doesn’t state, either by oversight or on purpose, is that Sheriff Pakinson lied about his knowledge of Giron’s mental illness. Multiple calls had come in and one of those callers uttered the magic words, that Giron was a danger to himself and others and that he had guns. With that knowledge, law enforcemnt could have detained Giron for 72 hours for a psych evaluation.
I support Mr. John Donegan!
This letter eloquently points out the balance our society demands between broadly-defined civil liberties and the society’s right to demand treatment for obviously mentally-ill people. In the case of Edward Guillon Zamora, I believe his mothers comments were self serving and meant to deflect blame onto the victim(s). This is unacceptable.
The bottom line is, I certainly hope that Alt. Left liberal politicians will consider the serious consequences of their attempts to influence obviously low-information voters like the BLM/Antifa/SQE crowd. It is dangerous for politicians to scapegoat law enforcement, and, as we see in the case of Zamora’s assassination of brave officer Luca Benedetti, it can also have deadly consequences. As a society, we must embrace lawful adherence to our democratically-constructed laws, and it is flat out wrong for our so-called leaders to embrace woke causes while they abandon the responsibility they owe the rest of us.
Shame on Heidi Harmon, Adam Hill, Jimmy Paulding, Caren Ray Rossum, Miriam Shah, Dawn Addis, Bruce Gibson, Aaron Gomez, Carlyn Christianson, Jeff Lee, and the rest of the bandwagon liberal elites who embraced the BLM/Antifa radicals and emboldened a killer.
Blue Lives Matter.
So glad my high-information friend John, a retired lawyer and very nuanced opinion guy, is here to educate us all on how you have exactly two options when treating mental health – you can either use the police to lock them up, or do nothing at all. That’s real facts and also science. No alt left Antifa loony BLM low-character high-nonsense BS MSM slant. The embrace of woke, self-serving causes like not wanting your loved ones killed by armed police serving a search warrant for stolen iPads will be the downfall of this country.
Way to go John! A fine article. I think the bottom line on this issue comes down to a choice. Personally, I couldn’t give two excrement particulates about Mr. Giron or his mental state. But I do care about the deceased officer and his family. I wish them well through a troubled time. I choose to vote and support those who bring consequences to these “ill” folks. Coddling them only brings more of them and more of the incidents like this one. I have worked in the field of mental health for years (the money and benefits are great!), my opinion is that 95% of the time we are WASTING our time and money on these folks. But keep wasting it, because I like the money. We abort viable human beings prior to birth in this country without knowing what potential they may have, but pour money and resources upon these idiots we KNOW won’t realize ANY potential for the most part, except to create chaos and, usually, children that will follow like paths. The aging hippie culture needs to die away, it’s given us nothing but whiny, self-absorbed crap for too long. Cuckoo’s Nest was a great movie though. But it was just a movie, enjoy the entertainment but don’t make it a life-changing experience. Yes, lock up the mentally ill! And keep them there until they improve or die. I will work to care for them and live comfortably off of society’s problem. Build more asylums…..errrr hospitals. Pump taxpayer money into it. It’s humorous when leftist idealists want to “help” anything in our world, they really mean “somebody else” has to fix their idea of a problem without their involvement in the solution other than to vote to take your tax money and spend it to make them feel good, regardless of the outcome. Way to go John.
@Jill Stegman: Having a citizen simple intone the magic words “danger to himself or others” does not enable the police to act. They must react to the observed words or conduct of the person, and not rely upon the conclusion of others who might have an agenda or ax to grind. You probably wouldn’t appreciate being put into the funny farm merely upon the word of a neighbor that you are feuding with, or an ex-spouse, etc.
In order to minimize future tragedies and protect our law enforcement officers, a thorough and transparent investigation of our communitys most recent police shooting and shooting of police should be initiated with the findings made available to the public.
There is reasonable speculation that Detective Benedetti, although well-meaning and respected by his peers and the community, did not follow law-enforcement best practices that otherwise may have prevented these two tragic deaths and the ensuing grief and controversy, giving fuel to local white nationalists, including the person or organization that goes by the name Steve Edwards, who aims to breed antagonism, division and further violence in our community.
If our police and local politicians are not willing to do a proper investigation, our local journalists should, to safeguard our men and women in law-enforcement and prevent further unnecessary tragedies.
We owe it to our police and our citizens to not sweep this under the rug. Now that emotions are settling down, its time to investigate and analyze the facts, including the inconvenient ones, for all to see and learn from.
@ Satcmo K. In fact, I have first-hand experience with code 5150. In 2013 I was desperate to get my psychotic husband psychiatric help, fearing for my life, his or others. I contacted his doctors with my fears and was ignored. My husband took his life a month later by a self-inflicted gunshot wound. I did not mean that a citizen simply has to “intone” that someone is a “danger to himeself or others,” rather, that it serves as red flag to clinicians and law enforcement. A 5150, or 72-hour hold, is a means by which someone who is in serious need of mental health treatment can be transported to a designated psychiatric inpatient facility for evaluation and treatment for up to 72-hours against their will. Had Mr. Giron undergone such an evaluation, two people might still be alive today.
The problem with an ‘enforced’ solution to the mentally ill is gov’t agencies are poor providers of care and decisions regarding the need for care. Many of our solutions to problems end up being problems themselves.
In the case of the mentally ill or disturbed, adequate access to those able to diagnose and recognize any potential “harm to themselves or others” so that appropriate action can be taken.
So, we need a system that directs concerned individuals, families and co-workers to the use of CA Code to ensure those in need get the diagnosis, intervention and treatment they need.
@Jill Stegman: As you sadly discovered from your husband’s doctors, the system simply is unable to deal with all but the most immediate, obvious and dangerous cases. A number of court cases initiated by the ACLU and others have greatly limited the use of 5150, and it is necessary that the dangerous conduct be observed BEFORE a professional evaluation can be forced. I have no doubt that you offered your husband all the support and care possible, and were insistent upon his seeking professional help, but he refused. Unfortunately, many of the mentally ill are resistant, and our current laws allow them to decline care. I also have been involved with 5150 proceedings, and with probate conservatorships, and am familiar with their limitations. I wish there was an easy answer.
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Mr. Donegan in his column is presenting unsubstantiated accusations. We have no evidence percented to the public that Mr. Giron Was laying in wait with the intention of ambushing our police officers. Mr. Donegan offers nothing to support that claim. It may or may not be true. It could be that Mr. Giron was startled and thought he was being attacked and was simply trying to protect himself and his home. He may not have even have understood that it was police officers that were pounding on his door and ultimately breaking into his house.
I think it is highly irresponsible for Mr. Donegan to in any way claim that he knows The motivation behind Mr. Giron s actions.
I am continually surprised that the new times gives space For such an irresponsible person to rant and raves and present misleading and dangerous information to New times readers. Mr. Donnegans writing is certainly not making our community a better place to live. Far from it. if Mr. Johnagin is kind to continue to pursue his writing hobby, he should step back first and realize that truth is the foundation of all good writing And what he is offering is clearly not good for himself or anyone else. Its mostly a bunch of egotistical illogical bull, excuse the expression.
The misinformation that Mr. Donegan spews makes it more clear than ever that we need a thorough and transparent investigation defined out what really happened during that tragic shoot out and police operation that went horribly wrong.
@GailLightfoot: Unfortunately, many of the most disturbed people refuse diagnosis and treatment, even when it is readily available and it is urged upon them by those close to them. After all, they are crazy. I am guessing that this was the case with Giron, as his mother seemed pretty involved. So the authorities are ultimately presented with a stark choice: Take them into custody and force treatment on them, or let them go. As a Libertarian, I am sure that you see the issues with either approach.
Apparently the NAZI know as Rightturd 2 is unfavorable to free speech. All papers must be submitted and approved by the gestapo left or you will be stifled and suppressed. Isn’t it funny that people that want so much free expression don’t want it for everyone? They call for unity and peace, but only if they approve the terms. These are the rooted tenants of fascism, socialism and communism. This must be fought against but not suppressed to the last man standing or even he will be void of freedom. Let their speech ring out loud and long so that they will be KNOWN as the purveyors of snake-oil oppression and chaos. Then free minds can choose the path they wish to pursue. Truth to these people is stamped and approved by the government and can only be parceled out in one-sided reporting while truth in reality is simple…it’s what’s true whether you like it or not.
How many people think it would be a good idea for law-enforcement or the news media to investigate the individuals or organization behind the Steve Edwards White supremacist propaganda campaign? Legal or illegal? Fair or unfair? Necessary to quell the scourge of racist cheerleading and intimidation Our community has been suffering through since the Trump-inspired insurgency? Or should we ignore it with the belief that it will simply fade away?
What do you folks think about this?
What do people think about Rightword’s efforts to incite a leftist mob to do his ideological bidding? Are the lemmings willing to follow you off of the cliff?
What Cliff? Care to explain? The question is: investigate or not? Yes or no? Don’t you think it will be interesting to know who or what is behind the white supremacist propaganda being promoted under the name Steve Edwards? Or perhaps you already have your answer. Are you going to apply for the reward?
What is cool about free-speech is that Everyone is entitled to it, regardless of race, age, religion or politics But, for the sake of society’s well-being, there are reasonable limits to it, as we all know it is illegal to falsely shout fire in a movie theater or use words to conspire with others to assault or kill others or in some cases simply intimidate with the intent to harm.
But it is OK to shout “theater” in a crowded fire.
Edward Zamora Guillon=BLM Inspired Cop Killer.
Officer Luca Benedetti=Brave First Responder Killed In Line -of-Duty.
The Cop Killer knew exactly what he was doing, no one has produced credible evidence that he was mentally ill, and to suggest that it was his mental health that led him to kill is to further insult the family of Officer Benedetti. Unfortunately, we have some really low quality people in this world, and cop killers are out there.
Had he not been killed after shooting two police officers, I advocate the death penalty for Mr. Zamora Guiillon
Shame on BLM Crazies.
Shame on Heidi Harmon & Jimmy Paulding.
Shame on those who defend Cop Killers.
Blue Lives Matter.
Reject BLM/Antifa/AltLeft Madness.
Support Law & Order.